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From a New York playwright to a screenwriter on Prime Video’s The Wheel of Time series, Celine Song now debuts her first feature film as writer and director — A24’s romantic drama, Past Lives. The film was a hit at this year’s Sundance Film Festival and is now gearing up for a wide theatrical release beginning June 23rd. Collider’s Perri Nemiroff had the opportunity to speak with Song about creative control as a first-time filmmaker and more.
Past Lives is inspired by the Korean-Canadian director’s personal experiences and explores the relationships between New York playwright, Nora (Greta Lee), her white husband, Arthur (John Magaro), and her childhood sweetheart from Korea, Hae Sung (Teo Yoo). Decades after they met as kids, Hae Sung travels to New York City to reconnect with Nora. Through long walks and conversations, they traverse their shared memories, the “what if’s,” and ponder the concepts of love and destiny.
During their interview, Song discussed the importance of maintaining “auteurship” throughout the production of Past Lives and how her partnership with studios like A24 allowed her the freedom to be the “complete authority on this project.” She also reflected on the lessons she learned from her experience working with The Wheel of Time showrunner, Rafe Judkins, and explained how she overcame the logistical challenges of filming a movie in New York City. Read on for Perri’s full interview with Song.
PERRI NEMIROFF: It’s a little unusual for us to see someone kick off their career with a massive Prime Video series and such a widely acclaimed A24 film, so to get a little sense of how you made your way here — how did the Wheel of Time opportunity first pop up, and is there anything about that writing experience that now makes you think, ‘I’m so glad that is screen credit #1 on my filmography?’
CELINE SONG: Well, I think that the way that it came about is I had a spec script that was about professional poker players that I think was submitted to Rafe Judkins, the showrunner of that show. I think he read it, and he does not play poker himself, but he felt like the way that I wrote about poker, he loved the script, and he thought it displayed an ability to go through kind of a dense world and to make it clear. So, I think that that’s really all it was. He read my script, and he hired me as a staff writer.
I feel like when I think on that experience, I think that the most important thing that I learned in that process was leadership, which I learned from Rafe. Something that I learned from Rafe is that leadership is not something where you’re trying to walk around saying that I’m a leader, or speaking like a leader, something like that. It’s actually more about taking responsibility, and not just taking responsibility for everybody’s well-being and their creative process and everything, but also you’re taking responsibility for how good the thing is going to be. And I think that’s the part of the collaboration, being a collaborative leader who has leadership and authorship, and I think that, to me, is something that I learned from Rafe, and I think on it so fondly.
Getting into Past Lives, I wanted to touch on working with A24 and the other companies involved. I read a quote from you that said, “The main thing that I believe as an artist is that I cannot let other people’s limitations of imagination dictate my imagination.” As a film consumer, that’s a very exciting and appealing approach to me, but I imagine sometimes it can be a challenging thing to communicate when looking for the partners and resources you need to make a movie. What signaled to you that you had found the right producers, the right creative partners to support that way of approaching your work?
SONG: Well, I think that a part of it is about exactly the thing that you’re talking about, which is the authorship or the creative control and a creative say in the process, and who is going to allow me to thrive in that, and who is going to have a communicative relationship to me where I can always draw from their experience? I feel like when I think about Killer Films and 2AM who are my producing partners, I’m looking to them for their decades of experience in the act of making a movie and making a movie in New York City, right? And I think that, to me, that really is at the heart of my relationship to them. But I know that at the end of the day, the thing that they feel so connected to about the project is my vision for it, too. And I think similarly with A24. For a studio, I think that they gave me such complete authorship and auteurship on my very first movie, and I think that requires so much trust and willingness to take risks.
I never once felt condescended to just because I was a first-time filmmaker. I was always treated with such complete respect for myself being the complete authority on this project, and I think that that’s the only way that I get to make a movie like this. So that’s probably why I said the thing about the limitation of imagination because I think that I really got to experience what it is like to create something that I feel like there’s complete integrity in it, or they have complete creative control in it. I got to experience the kind of auteurship that I’m sure one is lucky to have usually many, many films from now, but I got to experience that on my first film. So I have nothing but just, you know, “I’m very lucky. It’s very good,” you know? [Laughs] It was so great! I felt really great about them being able to trust me like that, you know?
So you didn’t have this experience on this project, but I am curious, when maybe someone has a limited imagination during the pitching process, is that an immediate red flag for you or is there anything you can do to not change your vision, but rather, expand theirs?
SONG: Well, I think that one has to try, right? But I think that it is also a matter of, does this person think that they know how to tell the story better than me? Because I feel like at the end of the day, they have to believe that you’re the right person for this authorship because otherwise, then it is really hard to imagine being able to commit to somebody in making something when they don’t necessarily believe that you’re the right person for the project. But I think you have to try because I think that sometimes it’s a matter of you yourself communicating.
Oh, absolutely!
I always love hearing about how ideas evolve throughout every single stage of the filmmaking process, so what would you say is the biggest difference between draft one of the Past Lives screenplay and what we now see on the big screen in the finished film?
SONG: I think it really did end up being pretty close to the original script, more than anything. Most of the lines in most of the scenes are exactly as it is. I think that maybe something that is a little bit different is maybe we didn’t end up doing something in the location that we wanted, you know? [Laughs] Like the Madison Square Park scene where Hae Sung and Nora meet each other for the first time in 24 years, I had in the script set it in MoMA, and I learned what it’s like to shoot at MoMA, which is not easy, unbelievably expensive, and they give you like two hours to shoot. [Laughs] I feel like in those ways you end up letting go of some of those ideas, and then you try to find something that is not only a good replacement, but honestly, better. Because I think that now I really know that shooting that scene where they reunite for the first time in 24 years, now I can’t imagine shooting it anywhere but Madison Square Park because it ends up being a really magical place.
Because you brought up filming in New York, which is often a major challenge, for any other filmmaker who is about to film in Manhattan for the first time, can you give them one do for filming in New York City and one do not?
SONG: [Laughs] Oh my god, I love this question. I told this joke a couple times, but the joke is that I had two divas on set, and they were none of the actors; it was New York City and my 35mm film camera. [Laughs]
So I think in New York City, I think that maybe the “do” — oh god, I don’t know. I think “do” is like, survive, you know? [Laughs] Think of shooting in New York City as a bit of a survival. I think what I mean by that is, it does feel a little bit like living in New York City, too, that you just feel happy that you got through another day, feel thrilled that you survived another day, and you got some great stuff in the can, right? And then of course, I think maybe the “don’t” is that you have to acknowledge, you have to accept that the city and the NYPD and different aspects of the city that maybe you didn’t think would be a big part of your film are going to be a part of your film, making the movie.
I will say, any stress you went through with that paid off big time because I’m obsessed with movies that feel so authentically New York City, and yours does. It felt like the New York City I walk around in, and I feel like so few films, even when they actually do film in Manhattan, are able to achieve that.
SONG: I feel like shooting in New York is worth it at the end of the day. I mean, just like living in New York City, you know? [Laughs] Once in a while you’re like, it’s so exactly what living in New York City feels like, and you know that you’re in the right pocket for shooting in New York City.
And also the “do” is that every single day should end with a trip to The Meatball Shop, and then everyone will be happier.
SONG: That’s great! That’s a great “do!”
I have to ask you about your cast here. Can you pinpoint a shared quality all three of them have, something that signaled to you that they would not only nail their own roles but also be ideal collaborators for each other and you? But then on the other hand, can you tell me something that’s unique to each of them when it comes to their approach to the work?
SONG: Amazing. I think that what they all have in common is, first of all, that they all come from a theater background, and I think that that really does help when it comes to being able to do a oner, right? Where you’re putting together the scene in a way that you just have to do the whole scene, which was really suited to the way that I wanted to make the movie because I just wanted some of those scenes to live in one take, you know? So I think that in that way, I think they’re just great actors who have a full grasp and handle on their own craft. That’s the one thing that I thought was really the same. I think that the way that they’re different is that, they are three totally different kinds of actors. I think their approach to acting is different, so the way that I would honestly talk to them about their performance would end up being very different as well.
I feel like Greta, I really thought of her as very much a partner in the scene, as in like my own partner, as in we were really talking about things very holistically about what the scene is, and I think that was really special with her. And I think that with Teo, I think that the process was sometimes about asking him to forget that he’s in a romantic film, you know? Because I think that sometimes he had to be somebody who’s an engineer, right? Who doesn’t have a romantic bone in his body in a way. He is obviously doing something so romantic, but it also had to be countering the really romantic role and a really romantic thing so that it’s not too much romance. So I think sometimes I had to be like, “I think less romance,” you know? And of course, he did that so beautifully, and I think that that conflicting thing really did shine through.
And I think that with John the opposite was true, which is that I had to tell him that he is in a romance. [Laughs] I was like, “John, you know that you’re in a romantic film. I understand, but you have to just be a romantic person.” And he was like, “No,” and I was like, “I think he does.” So it was interesting being able to transverse with these actors. Greta knew exactly how romantic the movie had to be, you know? She was just right. It’s kind of like, what is it? The Three Bears, and Goldilocks! It really was like, “Teo, you’re less romance. John, you’re more romance. And Greta, you’re perfect.”
Because you’re bringing up the romance, I have to ask, how do you figure out if the end of your movie works? Is it something you just have to feel yourself, or do you turn to test screenings, friends and family feedback, or anything like that?
SONG: I think that it is about myself, first of all, and I think that really begins with myself believing in that, and then my own objectivity around that, which I think is really hard. I think so much of being an artist is about being objective about your own work. Especially because the work itself is always subjective, right? So, art is always subjective and for you to be objective about your own work, I think you have to be absolutely brutal with it, and very disciplined with it. So I think in that way, I was just feeling like it was, first and foremost, entirely up to me to be able to navigate and balance and go through that in a way that I buy. And I’m the first to be able to smell my own bullshit, you know? [Laughs] So I am going to be a harsher critic of it, hopefully, than anybody else.
And then, of course, I think that then from there you do show it to people, and then, of course, you check for blind spots because no matter how hard I try, there are going to be some blind spots. Or, maybe I was too harsh, or maybe I was too brutal, and I really took away too much of something, or I added too much of something. And then you do a little bit of balancing and calibrating over showing it to, yes, your friends and family, yes, your test audience. I think over time you’re able to sort of calibrate it, and then you get to a place where, hopefully, it works for a lot of people.
Past Lives is in theaters nationwide on June 23rd.
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